Borrowed Bones

The (almost) First English Family in America

• Sarah Sexton • Episode 24

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A colony vanishes, a single word carved in wood, and a baby named Virginia Dare. Did the Roanoke colony assimilate, starve, or flee the storm? 

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SPEAKER_00:

Hello everyone.

SPEAKER_02:

Hello.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm Sarah.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm Cole.

SPEAKER_00:

You're listening to Borrowed Bones, a podcast about fucked up, interesting, and toxic families.

SPEAKER_01:

Today, who are we talking about?

SPEAKER_00:

We are talking about the almost first English family in America.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, okay. The first of the imperialists.

SPEAKER_00:

They tried to be, yes. The Dare family.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh-huh. Okay. Fitting name.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It is. They're daring, I suppose, but yes. The Dare family. And we are starting around 1540s England.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

So a time to have been alive.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Somewhere in the 1540s, John White was born. He's the start of everything here.

SPEAKER_02:

A guy named John White is probably the start of yeah, imperialists best fitting. I know. These are the times that maybe we think maybe there is a God, like as a script writer, because when things are just too on the nose. Johnny White man came to America and pissed on everything.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, maybe it's so obvious to us today because the people with these names are the ones that did it.

SPEAKER_02:

Milktoast trendsetters. Milktoast. Yeah, boring, dull. Like John White is about the most boring name you can have, right? John Smith and John White.

SPEAKER_00:

John Smith did a lot around this time, too.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Like the two most boring names to have.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So going back to John White with a at the beginning. Um, we don't really know anything about his early life. It's 1540s was when he he was born.

SPEAKER_02:

No one cared unless you're nobility.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And then we're fast forwarding to 1566. John White is now married and he has two children. He has a son and a daughter, Thomas and Eleanor. Thomas passed away at a young age, but Eleanor survived to adulthood. John White is first mentioned in historical record in 1577. So now we're jumping about 10 more years ahead.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. What context does he appear?

SPEAKER_00:

He made detailed paintings of Greenland and Baffin Island. Oh. John was an artist and he specialized in watercolors.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. He was doing the paintings in Greenland and Baffin Island because he was asked to go on an expedition with an English captain and privateer.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So he's like contracted as a scientific exploration or geographic explorer. Exploratory mission. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, John is next seen on record in the 1580s. He was part of Sir Walter Raleigh's colonization attempts in the 1580s. Oh. He was hired to paint the New World. A whole new world. New to the whites. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

It's new to us.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

With 600 men and seven ships, they set off on, they set off sail. They set off to sail.

SPEAKER_02:

They set sail.

SPEAKER_00:

They set sail. It's April of 1585. Their goal was to establish a military colony as well as a privateering base. They wanted to name it the City of Raleigh.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So North Carolina is where they end up. North Carolina, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

They also brought along um two Algonquin translators, Manteo and Wanches.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Wait, they brought them with them from Europe. Like they were already in Europe from a previous or did they pick them up? Did they like arrive in northern the northeast coast, like main area, pick up a couple of Algonquins, and then keep going?

SPEAKER_00:

At some point before this, there have been travelers, you know, back and forth, but this is their first attempt to make a colony. Okay. And so at some point, explorers went to our version of the New World.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I don't know the whole history here, so I am very vague on this. But yes, they got them before. And these Algonquin translators were they were friendly to them. They they helped each other and they were like, okay, you'll come back with us to help settle this colony.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So yes, they're starting in England. While sailing across the Atlantic, a storm separated the fleet of ships. When the fleet finally arrived, the ships were damaged, supplies was ruined, and they were really already off to not a good start.

SPEAKER_02:

They were already starting with a handicap.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So with the supplies ruined, and the 600 men immediately know that we can't start off this way. We need to turn around right now and get more.

SPEAKER_02:

Get more supplies. So they just have they turned their ships around because they knew they couldn't make it all the way.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, a few of the higher-ups decided we can do this because we'll use the natives, we'll be able to communicate with them, they can help us with food and get us through. We have enough to ration it. They could make it, but barely.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And John White didn't really care at this point because he was there to draw and he doesn't have a voice in the He doesn't really care. He's like, whatever, I'm here to do my thing. He began creating visual representations of the people, plants, and animals. This would give the Europeans their first glimpse of what life was like in America. But things were only getting worse for them. The Native Americans in the area, the Sekatan and the Croatoan, both were helpful and traded food at first, like they were hoping, but then the relations soured, especially between the colonists and the secatans.

SPEAKER_03:

Good.

SPEAKER_00:

I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. I heard two different ways of pronunciation, and this was one of them. So I'm I'm really not sure, honestly, how to pronounce it of the two ways, but this is one of them. So I'm going with this pronunciation of it. Eventually, after conflict between the tribes, well, between the Sekatans specifically and the colonists, it got pretty violent. There were some killings on either side. I did see some stories, and I'm not sure exactly what happened because they were all kind of different, but I saw one story that the colonists would overreact quite a bit. Like one colonist was found dead, murdered by the Native Americans, and they in turn like burned down their whole, you know, village. So things like that were happening at this time, and it was not good. So even though the Croatoan tribe was still friendly with them because Manteo was a Croatowan and he stayed loyal with the English while he was there, they still stopped providing food. I think they were caught in the middle at this time, kind of like, uh, we're out of stand, like we're Switzerland, you know, we're not gonna do anything. So the colonists were no longer getting help. And again, the limited supplies. Their backup wasn't backing them up.

SPEAKER_02:

They weren't invited there.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

So screw them.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. So, because of this, they did finally have to leave. John was a part of the journey back to England. They left in August of 1585 to get more people and supplies. Fifte men were left at the colony, though, just to maintain their claim of it. Like we're here.

SPEAKER_03:

Just 15. Just 15.

SPEAKER_00:

By that time, there was a standoff, like standstill. No one was messing with anyone anymore. It was pretty much done.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So they thought. Upon arriving in England, John was tasked with recruiting members to the new colony. And he was going to be the governor of the Virginia colony. So they have this first military colony there that didn't really go so well, but they're hopeful that the 15 men will continue to build and grow and maybe fix relations with the native people. This is the plan. John is now bringing civilians. He has 117 people that agree to go on the voyage. And among them was his daughter, Eleanor, and her husband, Ananias Dare.

SPEAKER_02:

Ananias Dare.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. Isn't that a fun name?

SPEAKER_02:

Sounds like a Star Wars name.

SPEAKER_00:

It does, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Mastodair.

SPEAKER_00:

And I don't know where John's wife is anymore. She's not talked about it all.

SPEAKER_02:

So she was a woman. Yeah. That's not important as history.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep, she's done. So the plan was to settle in the Chesapeake Bay, about 90 miles north of Roanoke Island. That's their goal, is to get up there.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

The colonists departed England in April of 1587, arriving on the coast of Roanoke Island on July 22nd, 1587. About two-month voyage.

SPEAKER_03:

Lovely.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. John White and a few other men went ashore before the rest of everyone to try and find the 15 men left behind and see what's up. And they found no trace of these men. No bodies, no bones, nothing buried, nothing.

SPEAKER_02:

Is the settlement still there? Just abandoned.

SPEAKER_00:

It was abandoned. It was broken, you know, uh torn up. They found where it was anyway.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. And they decided, okay, well, they're not here. Maybe they moved up north or maybe they went somewhere. They got attacked and they left and went somewhere. John goes back to the ship and he asks the ship pilot to take them north to Chesapeake Bay, 90 miles north. And the pilot of a ship is someone who's like an experienced guide of that land and area. And the pilot said, no, we're not going any further north. It's too late into the season and it's going to be too cold.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. Because they wanted to like plant crops and everything and get things rolling. So they had to set up on Roanoke Island. The colonists repaired the buildings that were there. And just a few days later, there was a colonist that was killed by members of the Roanoke tribe.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So there's three tribes.

SPEAKER_00:

This is now another tribe entered in. Yes. Yes. Now we're focusing on the Roanoke.

SPEAKER_03:

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00:

John White led the way for colonists to retaliate, but they accidentally attacked the Croatoan tribe instead of the Roanoke tribe.

SPEAKER_02:

Surprised that these white people didn't recognize the distinctions in minority groups.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. So tensions were mounting yet again. The white colonists were ruining these relationships. The colonists insisted that John go back to England for more supplies and help. We've been here before, guys. We've been here before.

unknown:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

I still wonder that Europeans ever got a foothold on this continent.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't understand it.

SPEAKER_02:

Einstein's 2020, but I think if the native tribes had been unified in opposition to us, I mean, hence why the Vikings were repelled 400 years beforehand and just gave up on this continent.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, were they fought off?

SPEAKER_02:

There's different theory.

SPEAKER_00:

One of the I just figure the Vikings weren't the way the English were. And they're like, no, there's land there, we mapped it, we know it's there. Bye.

SPEAKER_02:

I've read different theories, and one of them is that some conflict did arise between the Vikings and the further northeastern tribes that made Vikings be like, you know what, it's not worth the effort.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And one of the reasons is that I'm gonna do an tangent here for and again. This is can't cite it, so look it up. Feel free to check my math on this.

SPEAKER_00:

It's okay to be corrected.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yeah, yeah. But one of the more uh esoteric theories is that in the they would you know when the Vikings and the native tribes initially had contact, they were fairly friendly, you know, they exchanged some goods, Vikings left for a couple years, came back, and they were attacked. They were like shot at with arrows and lances before they could like make landfall. They're like, all right, well, what happened, but while we were gone, they soured on us. So the theory is that because cheese and dairy was a huge part of the Vikings diet, they gave some to the natives who were not used to it, they were lactose intolerant, they perceived it as being poisoned. And when they came back, they're like, fuck these Vikings, fuck these Norse, and they're they're trying to kill us. Wow. And to that, they're like, we weren't trying to kill them, we just I mean, obviously, they had no idea that different diets in different parts of the world would react differently.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow, yeah, that is interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a speculative one, but well, learning is interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

Learning about this, I don't understand why the English tried so hard to colonize this. I don't get it because there were so many failed attempts. Like there really were, and I think we just kept coming. Yeah, it's like ants being murdered by ants. Yeah. Well, so John had to go back to England for more supplies and help. However, he was reluctant to do so because his daughter, Eleanor, just had a baby girl named Virginia Dare. Born August 18th of 1587. And we know this because she was the second person baptized in America.

SPEAKER_02:

Who's the first?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, some other person, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

But she was the first born.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so like an adult was baptized. I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It was. I think it was a Native American. Oh, okay, gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, but she was so we have like a record of her, and she was named after the new colony, Virginia. How hopeful they are. It's like a jinx.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Hopefully get you killed.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I and the thing is, is they landed July 22nd. Virginia gave, or Virginia was born August 18th.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, so she was pregnant.

SPEAKER_00:

Eleanor was like eight, seven months pregnant because it took two months of a journey. Like, holy shit.

SPEAKER_02:

Must have been some rough morning sickness with when I was I mean, who knows?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my god, I'm surprised she didn't have the baby on the boat. So that's pretty amazing. Um, but yes, so John did not really want to leave because his granddaughter was just born. She was only nine days old when John left for England.

SPEAKER_01:

Gotta do what you gotta do.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. So now let's talk a little bit about Ananias and Eleanor.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

They probably married in 1583. We don't know for sure. Somewhere in the early 1580s. Ananias was a tiler and a bricklayer.

SPEAKER_02:

A Tyler?

SPEAKER_00:

Like tiles? Oh, okay. I don't know how to say that without the accent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I was thinking like the name Tyler. Like, what does that mean? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Tyler?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. He laid tiles. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And a bricklayer.

SPEAKER_02:

A bricklayer, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

He belonged to a guild in England. This was the bricklayer's guild.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Which was a higher up thing in England. This offers evidence that he's of a higher social status.

SPEAKER_02:

Probably like the early Masonic uh guilds. The Freemasons today. It all started with what was essentially like an early labor union of literal stonemasons.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, nice. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

They called it a guild.

SPEAKER_00:

That's the Stonemasons Guild, the bricklayers guild.

SPEAKER_02:

And then it eventually just evolved to you know Freemasonry being its own fraternal entity, close society, but it started as a literal like labor union, what we call today.

SPEAKER_00:

Interesting. Okay, so yes.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's like all these guilds were starting.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, he was a part of bargaining in the early days.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Ananias was also one of the nine assistants that were granted a coat of arms when sent to Roanoke Island. Obviously, he went to Roanoke with his wife, Eleanor. We don't really know much about Eleanor other than she's the woman of all of this. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Woman in history.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know anything else.

SPEAKER_02:

Unless you're Cleopatra or Joan of Arc or something.

SPEAKER_00:

Ananias was most likely given a leadership role for the new colony. His name did fall third on a list of the colonists for Roanoke, which, given English tradition, they do put things in order of importance. This was interesting though. Ananias left a son back in England. Yeah. Yeah. And he was like legitimate, I guess, but he wasn't Eleanor's son, most likely. I guess we don't know definitively, but Eleanor, they didn't, he didn't come with them. So we know that his son, John, existed because the son, John, was able to acquire Ananiasis's property after not hearing or seeing him for seven years. That was the time frame. And he was granted his property. So it's a pretty strong argument of that's his son, you know? The English government felt like it was. So yes, together, Ananias and the very pregnant Eleanor and her father, John White, were off to the new world. Now we're up to speed. John White, as we know, had to leave to get more supplies. As he's on his way back to England, his ship runs into very rough waters, bad storms, damaging his ship severely. Like he barely made it back. He does land in Europe in October of 1587. John quickly finds and meets with Sir Walter Raleigh, and he wants to also meet with Queen Elizabeth because he's like, hey, I need to get another ship to go back to Roanoke with supplies and more men. We need to go back right now. But at this time, tensions were rising between England and Spain and they finally reached a breaking point. The Spanish Armada was gathering to attack, and England had no navy at this time. Or they had a small one or something. I don't know exactly. I don't know 1500s England that well. But Queen Elizabeth said all ships need to be used to defend England right now. All of them. So, John, you're not getting a ship. Yeah. Sorry, you're stuck. Who cares about Roanoke right now? We're worried about Mama England, the motherland. It wouldn't be until 1590 that he would find a way back to Roanoke.

SPEAKER_02:

Three years.

SPEAKER_00:

Three years. John found passage on a privateering ship. They agreed for him to tag along. And on March 20th of 1590, they left. They made stops along the way, so it took a little while for them to get back or get to Roanoke. But they finally dropped John off on Roanoke Island on August 18th of 1590, which ironically is exactly Virginia's third birthday.

SPEAKER_01:

Maybe if she's alive. It would have been.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. When John went ashore to see his family and the colonists, he found what looked like a fort kind of made up of the street.

SPEAKER_02:

He's saying deja vu of yes. Like this guy keeps losing his people.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

There was a fence of wood, iron forming around, making like an enclosure looking like a fort. There were houses missing. They weren't really missing people. They literally tore wood from the houses to make this fort.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So they're scavenging their yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. There were no people found, nothing. There weren't, again, no bones, no bodies, nothing buried, no evidence of really what happened other than this fort. But there were a couple clues. There were the letters C R O carved into a tree. And then the word Croatoan carved into a post that was a part of the fort. So John thought that this meant the colonists relocated to the island of Croatoan, which is modern day Hatteras? I don't know. I didn't know that. I've never heard of that actually. And it's in our country.

SPEAKER_02:

There's a lot of islands already up and down the East Coast that's that one island. I think it's off the coast of Virginia. It's super isolated, and like there's still British accents by the natives. That's awesome. Yeah. Flick it up. I read about it recently, like a few years ago. Like there's this one isolated, like you that still has the trace of an English accent because they're so they've been so isolated, and it's like the last trace of an English accent in continental US.

SPEAKER_00:

I wonder if it's like old English though. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I don't know. I mean it's evolved, sure.

SPEAKER_00:

But like they they stopped learning English by old English time. They're not old English, I guess, but like kind of middle-ish English. Weird.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, it's the accent, not necessarily the dot, but the language.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, yeah, they have internet and they're not like isolated. They have TVs.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, the vocabulary is probably modern and oh my god.

SPEAKER_00:

The edibles kicking in. They still speak like e old. No.

SPEAKER_02:

That's really where my head went. So who they think is the king? I I don't think it's till 1650.

SPEAKER_00:

But how did oh anyway, whatever. We need to look into that. I don't understand it. I don't want to look it up because I want it to be true. Yeah. So I'm not looking it up. I want this in my life. There's an old English island off of North Carolina or Virginia. Somewhere on that. Yeah. It's in the speak old English. We should go. Anyway. So John figures they all relocated to be with the Croatoan tribe because Manteo was still around and he was still loyal to the English through all of these conflicts.

SPEAKER_02:

As far as we know. There's always like these gaps in the historical record that they take for granted. I'm like, but even as documented as it is, there's still like two-year gaps sometimes. And like you don't know. Mateo could have been walking under a tree in a branch fell and killed him, and we just, you know, life still happens. It's like, oh well, he was here. Well, he was here when you left two years ago. Right. He could have scratched his arm and gotten an infection and died of sepsis three days later.

SPEAKER_00:

Like it could have been anything. Yeah. You have no idea. Right. Well, here's the story. John is thinking because we do have the words Croatoan. So he's taking that and assuming, inferring that Manteo took them to his tribe and his people. The other Native American that came with them, Wanches, he through all the conflicts does turn on the English and sides with the Native Americans. Good for him. So that's the split there. Keep that in your back pocket.

SPEAKER_04:

Good for him.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I know I kind of felt that way too. I was like, get it. So John wanted to go take the ship up to Crowatone Island. He's like, well, obviously, let's go check it out. Yeah. However, there was a hurricane coming and the ship, they still tried to go, and the ship was blown way off course. And according to this, um, the next time they saw land, they were off the coast of Spain.

SPEAKER_02:

A hurricane blew them across the Atlantic Ocean. Sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. Sure. Why not?

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe they were pushing to the Bermuda Triangle and a gap, a lacuna in space-time opened and transported them.

SPEAKER_00:

I saw multiple um sites that said this, and then I saw one that said maybe they got blown to the Caribbean islands, but either way, there was I think there was some type of a storm that blew them off course.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe they meant like Spanish-controlled Caribbean islands, like not mainland actually, like Iberian Peninsula of Spain, but maybe like some Spanish plantations and uh you know, sugar plantations or whatever. If those were I mean, I don't know exactly what was going on at the same time, what Spain's interests were in North America at that time, but they were in Florida. So maybe they just got pushed to Spain.

SPEAKER_00:

Spanish territory, yeah. I don't know. Either way, they got blown off course. I like to think like a Looney Tune style of like blowing all the way to Spain.

SPEAKER_02:

Wound up in Alaska. What?

unknown:

Yeah, how?

SPEAKER_00:

What?

SPEAKER_02:

It picked you up and took you over the North American continent.

SPEAKER_00:

But either way, the ship does arrive back in England in October of 1590.

SPEAKER_02:

All right.

SPEAKER_00:

Very little is known about John White after his return to England.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, so they never actually went to Croatunno Island? So they just Does it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, they never actually went to the island to look.

SPEAKER_02:

So he wasn't that concerned about his family.

SPEAKER_00:

We we know very little about John White after his return to England.

SPEAKER_02:

I tried, but fuck it, the wind was blowing too hard. So I just decided screw it, I'm going all the way back to England.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, we do know that he moved to Ireland and passed away in as early as 1593 or lasted until 1606. But that's it. Okay. So he ends up in Ireland, and that's where he settles and ends his life. He didn't end his own life, but whatever. You know what I mean? John did, though, write a journal, and he also wrote a letter, and he sent the letter and journal to a man named Richard, who would then later publish them. In John's journal, he writes about the lost colony, and he mentions that between him and the colonists there was a secret token agreed upon. It was said between them that if they left, they were to carve into a post, tree, door, anything indicating where they are. Also, if they were in distress, he told the colonists to carve over the letters a cross. Like a religious cross in a certain form. It was like a certain way. And he says in his journal that he did not find any signs of distress. There were no crosses on top of those letters.

SPEAKER_02:

Always possible someone was killed before that could be done.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You don't always get to sound the alarm when you're killed.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

He Especially carving, like I know the most like could and not obviously didn't have like loose leaf paper and all that, but like you'd think there'd be more practical ways to leave a note than spending however long it takes to carve into Well, they probably wanted a more of a permanent way to keep a note, but I I don't imagine being under attack and chiseling and carving.

SPEAKER_00:

And the way it said is that the bark of the tree was stripped first. So they they cleared the they cleared an empty space on the tree or on the post, and then they carved into it.

SPEAKER_02:

And the whole the other tree had CRO right. Did like they start and then be like, oh, I fucked up, I misspelled.

SPEAKER_00:

I was wondering the same thing. I don't know. We don't know. We don't know. So even like kind of like what we're surmising, even though there was no cross over the letters, he was still concerned with how the houses were taken down, how the fort was created, and everything was pretty overgrown as well. So he knew it had been a while. There was a little bit of supplies that was left. The maps, oh, John White also did mapping for the area, too. I don't know what that profession is. Calligraphy.

SPEAKER_02:

Excuse me, uh, cartographer. Cartographer.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. I knew it started with the C. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But yes, so some of the maps that he drew up were spoiled by the rain, and um, he also found that he had armor that he left there that was now rusted through.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's been a little while since anyone's been at this.

SPEAKER_02:

It's been exposed to the elements for a few seasons.

SPEAKER_00:

So what happened? That's what John White writes in his journal. He doesn't really go on to He doesn't give the conclusions.

SPEAKER_02:

He's just This is what I saw. This is what I saw. He is what you can.

SPEAKER_00:

His his I his thought is that they went to the island. He he does lean that way. I don't know how much he believes it. You know, that's what I would believe if I were him.

SPEAKER_02:

The new structure that he found there was made for a defensive like which implies a siege, even though there's no bodies found. But again, if it happened years, I mean, if it happened a year before he got there, bodies could have been disposed of. I mean, who knows?

SPEAKER_00:

Who knows? They could have just been thrown in the water. Yeah. Who knows? This is all so long ago. I have no idea. However, there are a few theories and legends and myths surrounding this. So this is the fun part. Local legend says that the colonists survived and they lived with the Croatoans. Assimilating, intermarrying. People have said that early on other colonists would see little blonde hair Native Americans or like a Native American with blue eyes. And that was evidence to them that oh, they they they went, they did it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But who knows? Because it it wouldn't take very long for the blonde hair and blue eyes to be out of that if the majority of people have brown hair and brown eyes. Like so it would take a couple generations, that's about it.

SPEAKER_02:

But there's only like what 20, 25 individuals. I don't know how many with that compared to however many thousands of like it's gonna get filtered out pretty quickly for the most part. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So legend has it that some people have seen Native Americans with blonde hair, blue eyes. Who knows?

SPEAKER_02:

It's also worth considering that European folklore at this time had a long standing myth of like a white. tribe out there. So like there was often accounts of blonde-haired, blue-eyed Native American tribes out there that you know obviously wasn't true, but there was this myth of the time.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh. Did the myth you think happen after the lost colony?

SPEAKER_02:

Probably. I mean, because this is the earliest.

SPEAKER_00:

This does grow quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02:

And as as westward expansion, you know, kept going, then you know the goalposts kept getting moved. The mythical white tribe is now further west and west. It's always you know the next tribe.

SPEAKER_00:

The next one you'll find. Right. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But that was always an inherent wishful thinking of our racism. You know we'll find them just like us. Yeah kind of bullshit. It verifies it validates what we're doing. Right. Not to get into that but yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So of course people were intrigued by this as we're pointing out right now the white tribe and a part of this intrigue really focused and centered on the firstborn child Virginia Dare. They they want her to have lived and survived and grown with the Croaton people.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a potent symbol of American mythmaking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

The firstborn European yeah and as time passes the legend would grow and Virginia Dare would become the subject of American mythology. Mm-hmm her story is that not long after John White's departure, Juan Cheese, that other Native American translator, he launched an attack against the colonists. He was just waiting.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And among the few survivors were Ananias, Eleanor, and Virginia Dare. Manteo would go on to rescue the Dare family and take them to his people on Crowtown Island.

SPEAKER_02:

This is all just myths all myths. There's no citation for this there's no kind of evidence.

SPEAKER_00:

No evidence. This is all from here on out of the folklore this is the folklore. Yes. According to legend Virginia's parents died soon after this and Manteo and his people cared for Virginia. They would call her Winona.

SPEAKER_02:

Ah Winona Judd this is Winona Judd's origin story. From the Juds country singer never mind.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't cut that no it is said that Manteo taught her the ways of the forest and the land as she grew into womanhood the ace of the ways of the force oh the ways of the force yes this is getting a little too much into the magical yeah bullshit. So now we're going to take a big leap into the future we have American author Sally Southall Cotton.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

What you this is 1901 and she's from the Virginia area. I don't I forgot exactly where but she's from the area Roanoke area. Chesapeake area North Carolina you know all there. And she writes a book length poem about Virginia dare in 1901. It's titled The White Doe. In this story there were many Native Americans that competed for Winona or Virginia Winona chose a very handsome man named Okisco and there was another man that was also wanting her love but he was rejected and he was a witch doctor. He was very mad about being rejected he didn't like it so he cast a spell on Winona turning her into a snow white doe. Over the years the white doe was said to be seen gracefully moving about the landscape of the island. Sometimes the doe would be seen looking out at the sea as if waiting for John White to return. Erstwhile the heartbroken Oquisko he sought to reclaim his lost love and so he consulted a mighty medicine man for help. The medicine man told him to forge an arrow out of a magical oyster shell.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And this magical oyster arrow once it would strike the doe she'll turn back into Winona. Okisko is now armed with this magic arrow and he goes out to hunt for Winona. Sounds weird he sees her bounding through the forest he shoots the arrow and he hits the doe. He runs over she falls to the ground and upon transforming back into Winona he realizes that she's dead. Winona was also struck by a silver arrow that was shot by the witch doctor killing her.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So they were shot at the same time.

SPEAKER_01:

Nice.

SPEAKER_00:

Okisco buried Winona in the middle of the fort that was abandoned by her people years earlier so she could be with her own.

unknown:

Cute.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm it's said that people can see a little like a white doe running around even well into the 20th century hunters would come out of the forests of Roanoke Island with tales of a strange deer that eluded them in the wilderness and it would suddenly in the darkness of midnight they would see it and then it would vanish into the mist as dawn approached. Mmm there's the story of the Dare stones as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. I'm guessing these are some kind of relics that were found at this I think has a little more um validity to it. Okay. Obviously the poem we know that's just fake. Yeah it's just but we don't know for sure if they did go to Crowotone Island or not. That still is just what people are hoping because of what was carved into the tree and to the post. The mystery of the Dare stones there was one stone like a big stone found in the summer of 1937. 1937 1937 okay yes we've jumped ahead again yeah the stone was found by a California tourist named Lewis Hammond. He was in the area and the stone had old English written on both sides of it.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

This is at the at or near the site where the because he's traveling around he's from California but he's traveling I don't know he's a tourist a few months later on November 14th the tourist Lewis shows up at Emory University in Atlanta and he tells them that he found this 21 pound stone off of this new highway that was being built Highway 17 while he was hunting for hickory nuts.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So he was out hunting for hickory nuts and there's along the highway he just finds this 21 pound stone that has old English carved on it. Okay. And he decides to take it to Emory University in Atlanta. And what did the professors tell him the professors were very intrigued by this. They were examining it and they poured flour on it to see the markings better and they could see that it said and I'm going to read what it says exactly I'm not going to read old English but it was translated word for word to today's English. So I'm going to read it.

SPEAKER_02:

It starts with like Zup bitches.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah yeah it was brought into the common vernacular yes the first side says Ananias Dare and Virginia went hence unto heaven 1591 so John White left in 1587 I think so right? Yeah because he didn't come back until 1590 that's right she was born in 5 1587 right yes okay yeah so this stone if this was carved it's 1591 so they lived quite a few years. John White came and he could have found them had he kept able to look like he they were alive. They were alive blown to Spain. Yeah right yeah blown all the way to Spain. Yeah yeah so after that the the next line says any Englishman show this rock to John White governor of Virginia oh yeah John White was going to be the governor of the colony too did I say that yeah okay on side two it says father soon after you for England we came here only misery and war for two years above half dead these two years more from sickness being 24 do you understand what this is saying yet they're yeah it they're they were they were beset by misery and war. Yeah okay and were attacked and it fucking sucked to be here yeah there's more a savage with a message of a ship came to us within a small space of time they became frightened of revenge and ran all the way we believe it was not you. Soon after savages said the gods were angry suddenly they murdered all save seven my child and Ananias too were slain with such misery oh so it's claiming the author is Eleanor. Yes and she says my child and yeah yep and then she says buried all near four miles east of this river upon a small hill names were written all there on a rock so she's referencing burying them and then there's another rock over there with their names carved into it. Then she writes put this there also if a savage shows this to you we promised you would then great plenty presents so basically we'll they'll give you presents if you find a white guy an Englishman running around you show him this rock he'll give you whatever you want yeah and then at the end of it it was signed with the letters E W D thought to mean Eleanor White Dare. Basically she's saying half of us are dead through fighting conflict disease here's a rock we lasted this long a few people are buried over here whatever my first thought is it's too good to be true. If it sounds too good to be true it probably is right and it just it's so on the nose of like oh here we found the the missing link the holy grail like oh wow it's exactly what you'd want to find exactly the holy grail yeah like people at the time were skeptical because in the area it was being celebrated the 350th anniversary of this they they were very big into the Virginia dare lore and it was a 350th anniversary. So they thought this was a promotional stunt something like that going on.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm guessing also if it was legit if we if it was proven legit then we would all know that it wouldn't be a mystery then. Yeah well we would just know what happened if modern historians accepted it as accurate.

SPEAKER_00:

But that's why this stone is so interesting is I'll I'll keep telling you it's interesting. The Emory professors studied it and they published an article in May of 1938. One of the professors named Dr. Hayward or Haywood Pierce Jr. Pierce Jr. is what I'm going to call him became a firm believer in the Dare Stone's authenticity. He really believed in it oh the Darestone is also called the Chowan River stone because that's the river that it was found near. So you'll see both of those when looking into it Dr. Pierce Jr. persuaded his father Dr. Pierce Sr. to buy the stone from Lewis Hammond and he did. And then we never see or hear from Lewis Hammond again.

SPEAKER_02:

So Lewis Hammond made money off this we don't know how much but he sold it.

SPEAKER_00:

Well yeah but he didn't he didn't he didn't intend to though it was offered to him he didn't he didn't say hey I'll sell it to you the but he did sell it I mean there's a whole cottage industry of historical fakers you don't have to say I found it I want to sell it you expect that someone's going to beat the offer to you like true you don't start with I got this for sale it's look what I found and you know collectors or historians are going to come out and start bidding yeah yeah maybe maybe I don't know there's nothing known after this of him that the traveler is gone into history never to be seen again. So I'm not sure and I don't know how much he got for yeah how much how much he sold the stone for Dr. Pierce Sr. was the owner of Brannow College in Gainesville, Georgia, which is now Branow University. And this is where the stone still resides. Okay I was gonna ask so it's still at this university yes there's multiple stones at this university though. Pierce Jr having read what the stone says is like there's a second stone mentioned and if we can find that second stone then it helps to authenticate this first one.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So he offers up a$500 reward for the second stone. How many people come does more than one person try to claim it so I looked up also I looked up what$500 was in 1938$11,200 today. If you're$8 and older which there are some people alive today a lot that are 88 you remember like there are people live today with memories of$500 cost value worth of$11,000. Anyway I just had I yeah but you asked if there were a lot of people that brought in stones to get this$500 reward saying you're gonna get multiple people coming forward it's just gonna happen. There was one man specifically that really had a great string of luck and found a lot of stones. His name is Bill Eberhart or Eberhart I don't know how to pronounce it but I did see in one of the sources that he worked in like a quarry or he was a stone something he worked with stones he knows how to make fakes. Yeah and I think he found 42 stones damn and he would get he would end up making two thousand dollars off of um off of this what yep that's forty five thousand dollars today. So this professor Pierce he just like yeah there wasn't a condition of it must be valid to collect the reward it was just bring me a rock well he there there were 42 stones total he did so he didn't get paid for all of them. True Pierce knows we're looking for one stone right and he pays for at least four of them if they're 500 bucks so he knows that in the best case he paid one guy for three fakes okay yeah I think that since this Bill person is a scam artist the way you're saying maybe he's telling the doctor I'm not letting you run tests on this. I don't want you to ruin it until you buy it. So maybe the doctor's like fine I'll buy these four.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah which is stupid.

SPEAKER_00:

Which is stupid but it was stupid to put a reward on this too because you're gonna get fakes. That's just how it is so maybe the doctor knew he was going to get some fakes and is just assuming but yes a silly time a silly time according to the other 42 stones that were found the survivors of Roanoke journeyed southwest and they went more towards like South Carolina Georgia they go on to say that Eleanor and six survivors found refuge with the friendly Cherokees and that Eleanor married a Native American chief in 1593 she then gave birth to his daughter and named her Agnes. Ew I know and then Eleanor died in 1599 in a cave on the Chattahoochee River. Good for her I guess these were all debunked all 42 of the stones the the words weren't correct like the language that was used didn't match the like just you didn't even have to study the stone itself to know that this person wrote it wasn't from that time. I'm sure the professor still got tenure however the first dare stone the authenticity is still debated today we don't know the last time it was tested was in 2016 at the University of North Carolina in Asheville. The geologist there said that the weathering of the stone did match the age that it should be from okay but others said that the weathering could have been artificially done but then others argue that the Dare stone was found in 1930s and to do that type of artificial weathering there that wasn't possible to do at the time so scholars are split on this it's I don't know scholars are still split on the shroud of Turin which is an obvious fucking fake the what? The shroud of Turin that's mostly wrapped Jesus the white Jesus that we've assumed he would look like that the actual garment or the actual robe looks like what he was later painted to look like by white people I think with things like that and maybe this is falling into that category as well you can't definitively say it's not yeah you can't say it's not right and that's the same with this stone. I I do find it interesting that the outside of it is weathered the way that it should be however who's to say this traveling California person was in in the area learns of the lore it is the 350th anniversary so it's everywhere maybe he decides to chisel it in but he has to be really good at old English. He has to know how to speak that way like because that's not debunked either the the writing is is correct.

SPEAKER_02:

There is one thing there's a lot of things so I I don't know I'm gonna I don't know I don't know I just food for thought there's often when it comes to hoaxers there's like this catch 22 of we assume the hoaxers are also going to be lazy too like the best hoaxers are going to do their research they might even say in this case but in general when documents are are you know possibly faked and the arguments be well who would do that well if you're a faker if you want the hoax to pass you would think Saul Goodman. Yeah like yeah if if your whole thing is look at this artifact I found like well it seems authentic but you know who would who would take the time to to write it in the lexicon of the era? Yeah. Someone who wants it to pass convincingly like yeah I mean I don't know what this stone looks like.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know what the actual stone material if it you know granite or basalt whatever the stone is but who knows if you have sandpaper and you just scrub it for I have no idea substances I don't even know how to carve into like normal stone for it to last years and years and years and years. I I don't I don't know I don't know anything about it. But um it it is interesting that it's debated and it can't be found as a fraud it can't be definitively stated fraudulent. Yeah I find that I just find that very interesting leads me to believe that maybe someone survived something because there's three different carvings you know two at the site in the wood and then this rock now but who knows I don't know ultimately we'll never know.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah we'll never know unless there was some genetic testing done on descendants of whatever whatever current living descendants there are of the original native tribes in that area.

SPEAKER_00:

If you could like go back like human genome style there is yes there is um it's called I forgot what it was called I saw this very quickly though but this also comes up like inconclusive there are some promising leads I guess it's called the Lost Colony DNA or project someone lost colony project Roanoke project um I didn't I only saw that at like the very end I honestly found out about it today so I couldn't really research it too much but there is something with that and I think they're looking again my quick quick scrolling of it I didn't see that anyone definitively said yes we are linked to that.

SPEAKER_02:

And even if like a little bit showed up that would be enough that well I wouldn't say that doesn't necessarily mean the whole tribe or the whole colony was absorbed just the occasional fluke cross pollination for lack of a better term doesn't mean the entire colony was absorbed.

SPEAKER_00:

That's true. We could have just had two people that did their own little Romeo Juliet thing. Who knows? It doesn't mean complete absorption right so yeah who really knows I don't I find this interesting and I wanted to do this in lieu of doing a pilgrim one is since it is November. Oh yeah so Thanksgiving will be right around the corner here. And so I find this a little more fitting as a Thanksgiving story. It shows kind of the true nature of everything and then yes it was what oh my gosh when did we get here in Janestown 1607? That sounds right and uh that went smoothly as well. So okay happy Thanksgiving in a couple weeks I don't know when I'm gonna throw this but yes happy early Thanksgiving anyway remember to follow us on Instagram at borrowed bones podcast also rating and reviewing us really helps us a lot. We did just get our first negative review but it was like weirdly like not that bad. It was that we made too many jokes and it's like oh that's it's I'll take that yeah I'm I can never talk about anything too seriously because that's like my nervous tick is to joke and laugh and giggle and it can be annoying to some I've had people in my face say I'm tired of your giggle and I just giggled because it made me uncomfortable and I went okay and just walked away like I I can't change it. It is who I am and if you we are not for everyone but yes I appreciated it because it really wasn't that bad. So if that's the worst it gets I feel pretty good about it. I feel like we're finally made it by having a negative comment under our belt. So indeed thank you for that yeah follow rate review us no press is bad press see us on Instagram maybe the new vine that's coming out we'll see I hope that new vine app comes out that would be fun I would love that yes till next time bye

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Sarah and Cole

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