Borrowed Bones

The Carman Family Deaths

• Sarah Sexton • Episode 27

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The Netflix documentary, "The Carman Family Deaths" only scratches the surface of their family deaths. Listen to hear how a high status, New England family can ruin themselves from within. 


Sources:

US Department of Justice, The Keene Sentinel , Rita's Obituary , John's Obituary , Biography.com, People.com, CTPublic.org, CT Insider , 

Dark Down East Part 1, Dark Down East Part 2, Dark Down East Part 3, Time.com , Netflix.com 

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SPEAKER_00:

Hello everyone.

SPEAKER_01:

Hello.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm Sarah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm Cole.

SPEAKER_00:

You're listening to Borrowed Bones, a podcast about fucked up, interesting, and toxic families.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's a Christmas episode today. Well, not that the subject, I don't think, is Christmas centric, but a recording on Christmas Day.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Today is Christmas. When everyone listens to this, it'll actually be New Year's Eve. So Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Yay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, pressure now to get it out on that day.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Back yourself into a corner now.

SPEAKER_00:

That's okay. I don't mind.

SPEAKER_01:

You could be like CBS though and advertise it and then just pull it for no reason at the last second for undisclosed reasons.

SPEAKER_00:

That's okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Totally fine. Hey, Canada, and we got Canada gonna get our news out to us.

SPEAKER_00:

Is it is normal to get our information from other countries? It is normal to not receive it within our own country. This is okay. I don't see a problem with receiving our news from other countries. Anyway, happy Christmas, y'all. Oh, I also wanted to shout out my nephew Parker. He is turning 13 today. Happy birthday.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah. He's one of those unfortunate people that has a birthday on Christmas, so Yes. I mean, maybe he doesn't think it's unfortunate, but I always felt bad for people like that because I mean my birthday is close enough to Christmas where I, as a kid, I was like, Your birthday's in February. At the beginning of February.

SPEAKER_00:

So? That's enough time. As long as like I feel like January, early January, late December is rough. But after the first two weeks of January, okay, it's it's your birthday now. Like we're moving on. But yes, um, happy birthday to anyone whose birthday is on Christmas Day. Also, happy birthday to anyone who whose birthday is New Year's Eve. Happy birthday to everyone. We see you. We see you. You're more than just a holiday. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Who are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_00:

I thought that today, since it's being Christmas, there's no better way to celebrate than talking about family murders.

SPEAKER_01:

Ooh, we're dipping back into some true crimy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Yes. It's been a while. I just have a taste for it.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So yes, this is more true crimey. There's a few murders in this one. Um let's let's get into it. All right. So this, oh, actually, Cole.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You do know this one.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Normally you don't, but we stumbled upon this Netflix documentary and we watched it together. And in the middle of watching it, I was like, darn it, I should have watched this one alone. The documentary on Netflix is called The Carmen Family Deaths.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And it came out just this past November. I remember that.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah. So only a month or so ago.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01:

I remember watching it, but I know the I remember the broad strokes.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

But not the particulars. Yes. And the names and yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Perfect. There's definitely more to it than what the documentary showed. The documentary was good, but um again, broad strokes, they did it within a shortened time frame.

SPEAKER_01:

Netflix stocks are always the McDonald's version of documentaries. Like they're good for like it'll take away your hunger and give you the broad strokes, but like you're not getting the filet mignon of facts with the Netflix documentary.

SPEAKER_00:

Wasn't the um Likari catfish texting on Netflix as well? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's there's the cottage industry of their Netflix docs. Some are yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, if you like the Likari one, uh, if you listen to our podcast episode of it, it definitely gets in more detail. And I have more details on it on our Patreon episode, which you can listen to on our Patreon specifically, because we FOIA'd force only those text messages that the mom sent. And it is um very creamy. Don't say that. She says the word cream too many times. That's all I'm gonna say, and it's on our Patreon if you want to listen to that one. So, anyway, moving back to what we're talking about today, the Carmen family. Yes. All right, we are going to start with the marriage of John and Rita Chacolos. That's their last name. I think so. I didn't look into that.

SPEAKER_01:

The way you're saying it makes me think Greek. That's how it was sounded. Doesn't matter. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

This doesn't matter. They married in Connecticut in 1954. John and Rita met while they were in high school. They both grew up in Middletown, Connecticut. John graduated in 1944, and Rita graduated a few years later in 1947.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know if they were dating in high school, but I do know that they knew each other. Rita went on to become an RN, and John joined the army serving as a paratrooper in World War II.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh.

SPEAKER_00:

I know. That was pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean he graduated high school in 44. Okay, so he just barely got in there then. The tail end.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

After the war, John went to college and graduated with a textile engineering degree in 1951.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Then they got married in 54. They would settle in Windsor, Connecticut.

SPEAKER_01:

Windsor, Connecticut.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

Everything I always think everyone from Connecticut has to be rich. I don't know why. Like that New England. New England feels very especially. It's small. I picture everything as a gated cul de set in that state for some reason. Forgive me, any Connecticut residents.

SPEAKER_00:

The whole state feels like a country club that you're not invited to. I'm very white. I'm blonde-haired, blue-eyed, pale as fuck. In Connecticut, I've never been. I'm totally judging it, but feels too white for me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It feels like the whole state of Cape Cod. Even though Cape Cod's Massachusetts, I know. Oh, right. That blue blood ambiance.

SPEAKER_00:

Massachusetts, I know you're not lumping them in entirely. They have Boston to kind of like lower it. No offense. Make them real. Yeah. Right. Well, Detroit. I love Detroit. I love Baltimore. I've never been to Boston, but I feel like I would vibe hard over there. Like I like the the grittiness, you know, Chicago. That's what I like. Like it's a real city. Um, LA can fuck off. Like, I don't, I've never been to LA. So I'm just being a super judgy Michigander right now. Everybody in California.

SPEAKER_03:

Anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

I like anyway, moving on.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So yes. They are in Windsor, Connecticut, and they have they would have four daughters. Okay. Valerie, Elaine, Charlene, and Linda.

unknown:

Linda. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

John then began his business venture. He built nursing homes and assisted care facilities, like assisted living care facilities throughout New England. He did very great. He expanded, was doing very well. He also was very much into his family. He loved his daughters. He would name his properties after them. Family was everything to John. He had a motto that was without family, you've got nothing. Family is everything.

SPEAKER_01:

La familia.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. In 1994, John and Rita built a second home in West Chesterfield, New Hampshire.

SPEAKER_01:

Every syllable in that geographic location.

SPEAKER_00:

I know.

SPEAKER_01:

You can't say it without like a log-toothed accent.

SPEAKER_00:

John and Rita built a second home in West Chesterfield, New Hampshire. New Hampshire. I don't know how a blue blood would say it. New Hampshire, New Hampshire. Anyway, they're not they're they're good people. These are good people. We're just not from there. So I guess you mock what you don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

We're amongst the poorest.

SPEAKER_00:

This is all we have. Let us have this. Anyway, their second home was basically a mansion. It had three stories, 15,000 square feet. It had an indoor pool. It also was sitting on 88 acres of land.

SPEAKER_01:

88 acres.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a lot.

unknown:

Damn. Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

I grew up on a 10-acre ranch and I thought that was huge. That's okay. I just don't know exactly what an acre is.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. I I mean, I love you, but you did just mention we're among the poor, and then you say I grew up on a 10-acre ranch. What the fuck? We are not the same. Anyway. Their home in Windsor, Connecticut, though, was a modest ranch home. They would end up splitting the time between the two homes. John and Rita were fixtures within their communities. They were known for their generosity and charitable deeds.

SPEAKER_01:

Local philanthropists.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, they were some of like the good ones. Like money doesn't make you evil. Like you can be a good person with money. For nearly 10 years, John would put on a Christmas display at his West Chesterfield home. So that big one.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And he would allow the public to come and see it. It was so grand. Drive-by-something like I don't know what the setup is, but they would come and see it, and he allowed it. Only if they brought food or money for the local food pantry.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, okay. So you gotta contribute. Yeah, you've got to donate. You gotta pay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you gotta give. Just like force a donation.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I just thought of the uh uh I think you should leave.

SPEAKER_00:

You gotta give.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I think anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

Um I got it. But what was neat was that this was so popular that the food pantry would be stocked up for months and they would receive thousands in monetary donations. So yeah, they really were really nice. Now we're fast forwarding to November 21st of 2013.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, wow, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we're just big jump. So we're getting backgrounds. Yes, yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they're if you graduated high school in 44.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah, they're they have grandchildren, they have their empire, they are set. Um, Rita passed away in November, November 21st, 2013 from cancer. Okay. She was 84 years old, and she was surrounded by her family and loved ones, and John and Rita were married for 59 years.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So John's gotta be about 87 then.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Yep. Um John's daughters were now there helping to pick up the pieces, helping their dad figure out his new way through life because that's a big hit. Um, he was still involved in his businesses, he was still an active guy.

SPEAKER_01:

So he's still all there despite being 87. He's with it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. He's totally fine. He's just getting old, but he's fine. He's not like at his job every day or anything, but he's still overseeing and a part of things and decisions, and you know, he's he's there. He's doing well.

SPEAKER_01:

He's involved.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. One month after Rita's passing, December 20th, 2013, John's daughter Elaine, arrives at John's Windsor, Connecticut home around 8 a.m. to check on her dad. Elaine would enter the home and she would find her dad in his bed, shot, killed.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

There was no signs of a struggle or forced entry.

SPEAKER_01:

Did he, if you know, did he live alone?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, yeah, because Rita passed away.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, I don't know if he had uh one other one some of his other daughter living there.

SPEAKER_00:

No, mm-mm. The daughters, I think, would check in and visit quite a bit during this time, but um no one was living with him.

SPEAKER_03:

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00:

And unfortunately, there was not enough evidence to charge anyone in this murder. So it would end up being unsolved.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So he's just found dead in his bed, shot to death, no forced entry, no signs of burglary. Okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00:

That's it. There were some suspicions though. Even though there wasn't enough evidence for anything, there were still some people that were like, who, well, there's some things going on here. Daughter Linda was questioned by the police. She had a history of gambling a lot, and it wasn't really lost on anyone that she would inherit millions of months million millions, millions and millions of dollars upon her father's death. Of course, the other daughters as well would have received something in some way. But because Linda had that gambling issue, right? I never saw that she had a gambling problem. It just said that she gambled a lot. So I don't want to missay anything, but whatever. That was one little thread that they went down. She gambles. Let's see what she has to say.

SPEAKER_01:

And clearly, if there's no sign of a break-in and brilliant, then it's someone you know. Then it's yeah, it's not random. It's someone has an issue with him.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. They also questioned Linda's son, Nathan, who was 19 at the time. All right. He was questioned because he was the last one to see his grandfather before his death. Did you notice anything? What's going on?

SPEAKER_01:

How did he last see like in what capacity?

SPEAKER_00:

I think he was at his house doing like at his grandfather's house, yeah, like the night before.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Investigators also discovered that Nathan purchased an assault rifle that used the same caliber bullets as the one that was used in the murder.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. That's pretty Yeah. They didn't have enough evidence to Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Okay, thank you. That that's the Oh, there's more. Continu I'm gonna continue on.

SPEAKER_01:

So he was killed with an assault rifle, which is I mean I mean, I'm assuming for this, that's that's pretty I'm not even an assumption, that's just a fact that's pretty unique compared to, you know, a handgun, a nine millimeter, 38, 45, you know, that kind of thing. So that narrows down the suspect field right there. It's not a gun that can be bought on the street as it's not as omnipresent as you know, your Sunday night special kind of thing. Honestly, as someone narrows it down quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00:

As someone who just lives in America is not into guns, not in the gun culture, I'm not into hunting, I don't know anything about it. I don't you can give me names of guns all day, and I'll be like, I have no idea it's a pistol versus a rifle versus assault rifle. I assume because of the amount of times I see assault rifles, assault weapons in the news that they're as easy to get as anything else. Are they not?

SPEAKER_01:

No. I mean it's easier to get if if you're the average, I didn't say average, but if you're yeah, if you're a career criminal, let's say, who's a burglar robber, whatever, you're gonna get uh a handgun off the street.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I see what you're saying. It's easier to have like illegal handguns and it's to have illegal assault weapons. Okay, okay. That makes more sense to me. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Obtaining them is still kind of whatever narrows down the suspect field and any homicide that's a bit, oh, these bullets came from an assault rifle. That's you know more unique than you know, a 38-caliber slug or something like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, okay. Um, also, Nathan at first denied buying an assault rifle. He was like, No, I what? And then later, when the police were like, Well, we have receipts, we have we have receipts, yeah, he admitted record. He did admit, he goes, Oh, I did, but I I forgot about it. So sorry. And then they were like, Okay, well, where is it? And he was like, I lost it.

SPEAKER_01:

He forgot, he lied about it, then forgot about it, then lost it, he claims.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I don't think he forgot he lied about it, but but I'm saying he's saying, Oh, I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Yes, he lied about buying the gun, confronted with the fact that he did, he said he forgot buying it, yes, and then claimed he somehow lost it in the interim. Okay. There's charges right there. There's charges right uh aside from the homicide. So you misplacing a firearm.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that illegal?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, I don't else isn't kinda state by state, who knows?

SPEAKER_00:

Maybe it's a fine at least, a something, a slap on the wrist. Like you can't just misplace a weapon, right?

SPEAKER_01:

I guess again, I'm thinking it's like Michigan law, like right now, like if the gun turned up in a subsequent crime, then he could even if he didn't use it, then it's his fault. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Like well, also Nathan randomly just we don't know why, destroyed his computer around the time of his grandfather's murder.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Now how did he I don't know how.

SPEAKER_00:

I just saw an article that he destroyed it. I'm not sure how. Um I don't know what destroyed means. If it means destroyed evidence, it destroyed things on his computer. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

Did he physically like take a bat to Yeah?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know exactly. Um honestly, whenever I like doing things on documentaries, but whenever they're there, it it's harder for me to search because the documentary comes up all the time. And it's like blah, blah, blah, like in my face. I'm like, God damn it, I know what the documentary is. Like, let me through. But anyway, the Windsor Police Department was like, all right, we can do a warrant. We can get a warrant for Nathan's arrest. Very least, yeah. And um, however, it was left unsigned because there was not enough concrete evidence.

SPEAKER_01:

But that's why you get the warrant. Yes, is to get the evidence. You have probable cause to get the warrant, to get the evidence. And I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to I've I have seen warrants for far less probable cause.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Like, yeah, you've got a unique murder weapon, you have that this guy bought it and doesn't current and can't currently account for it. That's and he's a rel he's the last one to see him.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

There you go. That's more than enough, probably.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I forgot to mention he also does get some inheritance too.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So he's got a motive opportunity.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. But allegedly some judge. We're gonna say allegedly a lot. I'm just gonna say the word allegedly right now. Like we're gonna say this a lot in this episode. But yes, continue.

SPEAKER_01:

Sounds like the on-duty judge for signing the warrant had some bias. I don't know. That's who knows? Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's all speculation.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, this is a cloister not cloistered, but relatively community of rich Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

They're in the Everyone kind of knows everyone, I'm assuming, as far as the upper echelon.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So that complicates Yeah. Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

There's a lot. There's like, I mean, they're they're millionaires.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So there's a yeah, they're in a world that we don't understand.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's the grandson. If it was some non-relative two blocks away who had the same probable cause.

SPEAKER_00:

Rain down. Let hellfire rain down on them. But it's my son, it's my grandson. It's you know, so we'll see. We'll see how we'll play it out. So now we're gonna fast forward about two and a half to three years to September 17th of 2016.

SPEAKER_01:

All right.

SPEAKER_00:

Linda and Nathan. So Nathan is Linda's son.

SPEAKER_01:

21, 22 about now.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, 22 or 23. Linda and Nathan board Nathan's fishing boat called the Chicken Pox.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I don't know. Why would you name like was smallpox taken? Like as a boat name? Like, why would you I don't know. This is our boat, diphtheria. What?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, chickenpox is the name of the boat, not sure why. And they head off on an overnight fishing excursion, and they left from a marina in Rhode Island around 11 p.m. They plan to go like up and down somewhere along the east coast. And the following day, several of Linda's friends tried to contact her, but never received a response. Knowing that she's out on a boat, they get concerned immediately because you're out on the water. They quickly reported the boat missing. The Coast Guard began looking right away and they just found nothing. They looked for one week, found nothing, so they suspended their search on September 24th.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

The following day, on September 25th, Nathan was miraculously found floating at sea in an emergency life raft. He was found by the Orient Lucky freight ship. He was about 100 miles south of Martha's Vineyard.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. Makes a lot of headlines, does it?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yeah. It becomes like national news. Like, yeah, his he's and then do you remember seeing the emergency raft in the documentary?

SPEAKER_01:

Inflatable kind of yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

He's like on top of it though, even though it has shelter. Like it's it's kind of looks like a bouncy house.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, like a tent. It's got a roof.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's you know, obviously to shade someone from the sun.

SPEAKER_00:

And he's like on top of it.

SPEAKER_01:

So I don't know, when you see it in the documentary like a shirt, he's like waving something to like get their attention. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So it looks like the emergency raft is like on its last legs and you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Deflating, it's not yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um, so Nathan said that his boat had a malfunctioning belt in its engine area and began capsizing. He was asked why he didn't send a distress call.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

What'd you do? And he didn't really answer. He said he lost track of his mom and he made it to the emergency life raft, but he couldn't see his mom. He called out and looked around, but he just couldn't see or hear her. And he said that he blew the whistle of the boat with three loud, like short bursts, like the distress signal. SOS. But he didn't do anything with the radio, though. He never called anyone on the radio. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And this is not a this is a fishing boat with two people out. This is not some yacht. No. So I don't know how you could really lose sight of someone I don't know where they went. Well, it's just not that that the many places they could go. Well, did you turn around?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think his so the next thing he says is that um he assumed that if she had been on the surface and conscious that she would have been able to find him like near the emergency raft, but um he didn't know why that didn't happen.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So in his head and his retelling of it, she's at this point already like gone.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So he just that that's that's his answer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And he's able to get the life raft inflated and I'm not sure. I'm sure it's not, you know, blowing it up with your mouth.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm sure it's like a pull cord or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

There's still things that he was able, by definition, things that he did.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

How how do you do all of these things with your the other passenger not accounting?

SPEAKER_00:

Being aware, knowing, yeah, yeah. How do you just do all this and your mom's just not around? So yes, already people are kind of like, okay, interesting. All right, but you know, he's been out for eight days on the sea, like who knows, who knows, who knows. One month after Linda's disappearance, because Linda's never found, the boat is never found, they never find anything else ever.

SPEAKER_01:

And the the raft itself. We'll get to it. Yeah, okay. Well, we'll get to it. Cut that, cut that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I never cut it when you say cut that. Okay. Awesome. One month after Linda's disappearance, Nathan planned a memorial service for his mother.

SPEAKER_01:

He planned it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

He planned it, he put it on. I don't know if he like paid for it or whatever, but he planned it, he was involved in it. It was like him that did it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Just interesting, it's him and not one of her three sisters.

SPEAKER_00:

None of them attended.

unknown:

Oh.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

They suspected Nathan in both their father's murder and their sister's murder.

SPEAKER_01:

What would have given them that thought? Was it all the evidence?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Yes. It's all the evidence that wasn't enough for the police. It's all of that. Yes. They believed he was driven by greed. Yeah. Shocker. Nathan's grandfather's estate was worth$42 million. After his grandfather's death, the estate, like we said, was divided between the four sisters, Linda being one of them. And upon Linda's death, Nathan inherits seven million dollars.

SPEAKER_01:

Mode of an opportunity.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. It is interesting in the documentary. I don't know if you remember this, how Linda records herself on video taking him out of um inheriting her house. I don't know if she, I never I actually forgot to look into if she has the Windsor, Connecticut home. I think she may have gotten that small ranch home from after her dad died. I think. I don't know for sure, but in the video in the documentary, she says, I don't want Nathan to have the home anymore. It's been in the family for years. That's right. She's I don't think that he'll take care of it. I think she thought he was gonna sell it for money.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So she let him keep the money that he was going to inherit, the seven million dollars, but she took away the home.

SPEAKER_01:

So that just kind of seminal reasons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think that kind of shows that not that she suspected her own son of doing any foul play, but she knew that he wasn't as caring of the family as maybe she wanted him to be. Yeah. You know? Something. She knew something was up.

SPEAKER_01:

Wasn't he?

SPEAKER_00:

Well that Nathan would inherit seven million dollars. Nathan's dad, however, Clark Carmen, he didn't suspect Nathan. He said that the police misread him. They didn't understand him when they were questioning him. And in order to understand why his dad is saying all of this, we need to know a little bit about Linda, Clark, and Nathan's like early years together as a family.

SPEAKER_03:

All right.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so we're gonna go back a little bit. Clark and Linda were a young married couple when they had Nathan in 1994.

SPEAKER_03:

Alright.

SPEAKER_00:

They would get a divorce when Nathan was pretty young, and it sounds like Clark was involved in Nathan's life, but it wasn't like a 50-50 custody thing. But he was there.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Doesn't seem like anything bad, just the way it worked out.

SPEAKER_01:

Just a fairly mundane divorced phase.

SPEAKER_00:

It just seems like, yeah, nothing crazy. Nathan was diagnosed with at the time it was called Asperger syndrome. He was diagnosed that as a kid, which today it would be, he would be considered on the autism spectrum disorder. So I'm gonna say autism from here on out, but he was technically at the time autism disorder spectrum. Sorry, autism disorder spectrum. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Um, but yes, at the time he was diagnosed with Asperger.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they changed the terminology.

SPEAKER_00:

His diagnosis was on the more mild side. He was socially awkward. He did communicate a bit differently, which is what his dad was referencing when saying the police were questioning him and interrogating him that he they didn't understand the way his answers were, the way he was being maybe not as emotional as he should have been, not as sad, you know, a little more apathetic coming across. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Not a flatter affect.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So his dad was like, you guys just don't get it. It's it's not him. He's he's trying to tell you what happened, but you're not understanding him.

SPEAKER_01:

He's not really trying, though. He doesn't know where he's where his fucking gun went. Exactly. He's not trying. Answer this question.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. That's true. That's a fact. That's not an emotional pull or anything like that. That's just a fact. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

His emotional lack thereof. If he's not the shooter, they he could have very easily disproved it to the cops. Yeah. The cops could easily cross him off the suspect list. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

If he didn't have all this weird stuff around them. Right. Um, he had difficulty making friends. He didn't really have many friends. He also could get violent. He he did have that in him. There is one story from his childhood that he held another kid hostage with a knife. I don't know any more about that. I will say in the future, um, this story, a few other little stories that pop up were denied by Nathan. He said that never, like that stuff never happened.

SPEAKER_03:

So I'm gonna put it in there because I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, but that is what someone said. They were like, hey, no, he he held a kid hostage when he was a kid with a knife. So I don't know. All right. Now we're jumping forward to when Grandpa John will enter the picture in Nathan's world. Okay. I mean, he's he's been around. He's been around, yeah. But like this is um Nathan's more of a more of an influence on him. Yeah, Nathan basically had like a small community help raise him between his grandfather's dad, mom, probably his aunts here and there, but like the three of them essentially were the ones raising him. John, Grandpa John was very hands-on. Clark and John were kind of on the same page with Nathan's diagnosis. They they know that he, you know, has autism, but they don't really agree with the way that Linda wants to have it treated. Linda was going the medical route, um, therapy, medicine, those kinds of things. And I think that John and Clark were like, let Nathan live his life, stop labeling him, stop putting this on him because the label is what's hurting him. You're putting him in a corner.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Stop training him to act awkward, essentially. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And, you know, at the time, which this wasn't that long ago, but it was worse than it. Well, it's starting to regress again with the autism stuff of like, you know, Tylenol can give it to you. It's all bullshit. Like, listen to your doctors, listen to your medical care team. They will help you. Go to therapy. If you don't want medicine, talk to someone. Like, like it, it you can't just deny that it exists and then hope that someone's not.

SPEAKER_03:

It's all Tylenol I caused it, and I won't hear anything else but that.

SPEAKER_01:

Gross. Don't talk like that.

SPEAKER_00:

No. But yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

Who I was. You don't have to say.

SPEAKER_00:

So anyway, um, autism is something that we still need to understand better and support better. Be an advocate, please. But yes, Grandpa John was very involved in Nathan's world as well. In January of 2011, Nathan is like 17 at this point. Um, Nathan's horse, like his best friend, is he loves this horse, dies.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, like a kind of like a therapy horse. I have no idea if he was a very good thing. Yeah, anyway, it was.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm assuming they owned it. I mean, oh yeah, I guess they would. I'm sure they had land or something.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um But yes, he had a horse named Cruz that he loved and was basically his best friend, and the horse died in January of 2011.

SPEAKER_03:

All right.

SPEAKER_00:

Linda tried her best to help her son, like I was saying. She sought out the services that he needed, but Nathan would often refuse those services. He hated being labeled with anything. He didn't like being diagnosed, he didn't like it. He just was like, nope, he refused. In April of 2011, so a few months after his horse died, Linda wrote on an online forum that her son, like a support group, you know, um, that her son had paranoid delusions and religious idiocy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Religious idiocy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I've never really heard of it. Oh Merry Christmas, y'all. Celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. Baby Jesus. Yeah. Anyway. She also said that Nathan would refuse medication and that he was admitted to a rehabilitation hospital for psychiatric psychiatric treatment, but things got complicated. So Grandpa John showed up. He didn't like that he was in the hospital. And um John and Rita, or yeah, because Rita was still alive at the time, were allowed to visit Nathan for hours. There was no restrictions, nothing, but Linda wasn't always allowed in. Per Nathan. Nathan. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Nathan wanted that. This wasn't the hospital staff. This was Nathan saying that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'll see my grandparents, but not my mom.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Okay. Um, so of course, that's not fun for a mother. And the disagreements between Linda and John got so intense at the hospital that it became physical.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh.

SPEAKER_00:

And Linda was arrested.

SPEAKER_01:

She was arrested for assaulting her 80-something year old father. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But the charges were dropped.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00:

Family matters, you know, yeah. Linda also wrote about this incident in the online forum. She wrote, My father has insisted for 17 years that my son belongs to him, and all his problems are a result of me, his mother. So sounds like John. I don't know if John is blaming Linda, but she feels like he is. Given the background of John also not liking all the treatments and medicines for Nathan. I mean, he might have said that to her. There is clearly disagreement on how to raise her child, and John again is very, very involved. It kind of feels like a knives out situation.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I kept thinking of that every time. I was like, oh, the the grandfather doesn't really want to be as involved as he is. But he's like, God, damn it, you guys fucking suck. Will you just get it together? Yeah. It feels like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Like John and Rita really are good people, and they and I don't think that the daughters are bad. I don't think Linda's bad or anything. I just think he's just trying to be like, I want to pass the torch, but can you guys handle it?

SPEAKER_01:

Picture and like, yeah, like the old Christopher Plummer, the actor, as the as the as grandpa John and Tony Collette as Linda, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Chris Evans as Nathan. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

45-year-old Chris Evans as 19. Got that kid killed. Kid, he's like 50.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, Hollywood has stopped giving new people chances, so they probably will cast 45-year-olds as 15-year-olds. It's whatever. Oh my god, I feel so angsty on this Christmas day. Anyway. Then in August of 2011, so again, just a few months later, Nathan told his dad that he was gonna go ride his bike to Westbrook, Connecticut in the morning to do some fishing. Sounds like something pretty normal. Nathan left the next morning and never returned. Linda and Clark reported him missing, and the police began searching. Several days go by, and then there's a suspicious man that was reported in Virginia for lingering outside a vacant store. And it was Nathan.

SPEAKER_01:

He was just loitering outside an empty store? Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And he looked creepy, so someone called it in.

SPEAKER_01:

He was in like a fugue state?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know. Nope. When he was approached by the deputy, Nathan told him that he was just looking for a safe place to sleep before he was gonna ride his moped into Virginia. He just purchased that moped after taking the bus to Virginia.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't remember this at all.

SPEAKER_00:

This wasn't in the documentary, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I don't remember that at all.

SPEAKER_00:

At first, Nathan gave a false identity to the deputy and didn't tell him what state he told him the wrong state he was from, just completely lied.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

However, Nathan was holding his social security card. The deputy saw it, got it, ran it, and whoop, Nathan pops up as a missing person.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So the deputy ends up taking him back home. But Nathan also had$4,000 in cash on him and two pictures of himself and his horse, and that's it, along with his social security card. Like so he took a lot of money with him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Kind of in that still naive way of if he's trying to run away and start fresh, like I got enough.

SPEAKER_00:

I got my social security and for that, like 17, yeah, so he's still kind of young.

SPEAKER_01:

That'll be enough. Like, no, yeah. That'll get you a week, maybe.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, actually, how much is four thousand dollars in 2011? Let's look it up, because I forgot to, and you know I love this stuff. Yeah, let's see here.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so$4,000 in August of 2011 would be$5,722 today.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's honestly not as bad as I thought it was gonna be.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so it's about yeah, so it's$1,700 more.

SPEAKER_00:

That's not too bad. Yeah. All right, all right, all right. I really thought it was gonna be more. I'm kind of let down.

SPEAKER_01:

And he also he left on his bicycle and acquired a moped. Yes. So he had more money on him. So he bought a moped, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And he bought a bus ticket.

SPEAKER_01:

And a bus tick, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, there's also, I almost forgot to put this in. Um, they do mention this in the documentary, I believe. I we watched it like a month ago, so I don't remember everything in the documentary. But if you remember this, Nathan's parents also sent him to a camp for like troubled teens in Utah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah. Oh, it's one of those where like they abduct you in the middle of the room. Yes, and like put a bag over your head and drag you to a van, and then you wake up and you're suddenly in a different time zone in a desert and like march 45 miles. Yep. Oh, yeah, it's horrific abuse, and I don't understand how that's in any way legal.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know how you're allowed to do that.

SPEAKER_01:

Like all the time.

SPEAKER_00:

I have no idea what name this camp was that he went to. I have no clue, but it was one of those camps for troubled teens, and he was kidnapped out of his house. Like the parents knew, of course, but like it was exactly that. I don't know when he went to this camp. He was a teenager over the summer. I don't know if it was this summer. Well, maybe maybe it was later, but he was doing a lot of other things this summer in 2011. Um, but yes, at some point as a teenager, his parents sent him to this camp.

SPEAKER_01:

If to speaking for myself, if I if that happened, if my parents did that to me, no matter how troubled or I need to be disciplined, whatever, however problematic, I am not coming back. My my will, I will I'm not coming back better.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_01:

I am gonna be plotting my revenge the entire time against them.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I would never, that's something that I would never forgive. I would never forgive, and I would never have to be able to do that. It's such a breach of trust. I wouldn't feel comfortable sleeping in that house anymore. I'd be like, you're just gonna kidnap me again and throw me in a van. And like, how scary for that time of being kidnapped, even if it's only for like 10 minutes, and once you're in the van, they open your eyes and say, You're good, and here we are. Like that 10 to 15 minutes of like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_01:

And then they tell you that your parents did it that that's at their behest, they paid for this. Yeah. So you watched the other documentary all about this cottage industry, and there was kids that were in it for like two years.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because they kept being too bad and too troubled, and they never got to leave because their points kept getting taken away, or whatever, whatever, not points, but anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't understand how the yeah, how the parents of all the parents of those kids aren't killed by their Oh, I thought you were gonna say arrested.

SPEAKER_00:

No, you went to killed, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Like there's a motive right there. Like, you did this to me, I'm Oh, killed by their children. Okay, yeah, yeah, okay. It's been an epidemic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yep. Um, so anyway, at the age of 18, we're now in like 2012, so a year later, Nathan moves out of his mother's house and he rents an apartment a few blocks away. Grandpa John helps him monetarily move out and rent his apartment. Grandpa John is the reason Nathan can do anything.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I'm assuming he doesn't have a job that allows him to have an apartment and all that.

SPEAKER_00:

According to the documentary, Nathan's cousin Chuck said that he estimates Grandpa John gave Nathan about$100,000 a year. And John did eventually give Nathan an ultimatum saying that Nathan needed to get a part-time job and go to college or he'd be cut off.

SPEAKER_01:

If I got$100,000 one year, uh I think I'd just be done. I would just invest that hundred thousand and live off that.

SPEAKER_00:

And he was living with his mom, like he wasn't paying rent. Like what bills was he paying? He could have just invested that into something to have just a hundred grand of just money to like do whatever with.

SPEAKER_01:

What are the investors? Grandpa John thought that's like what an average 18-year-old needed to live in. No, it's a sponsor being a kid. What are you a hundred thousand dollars just to get by?

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, this is what a cousin is saying. This is, you know, I don't have receipts. I don't I don't have receipts there, but um the family believed this. So it's any either way, Grandpa John was funding Nathan. He was giving him Money freely. And Grandpa John was like, all right, you have to do something with your life. I can't just do this for you forever. Chris Evans from Knives Out. I forgot what his name was in Knives Out. Anyway. One year after John was killed, so now we're in 2014. Nathan moved to Vermont. He moved out of that little apartment and moved a little bit further away to Vermont.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Despite Linda and Nathan's disagreements, they did remain close. So even though, you know, she wanted him to do better things with his diagnosis and get more treatment, he's moved out now. He's a little further away. There's nothing more she can do. She has to accept him as the adult that he is now, and that's that. So they're they still remain close and they bond over traveling and fishing. This is a very normal thing for them. Even though at this time Nathan was still an active suspect in her father's death. Think about that happening in the background. You're like living life with your son, and like he may have killed my father. He may have killed my father. Like it's still an open investigation. They haven't forgotten about them.

SPEAKER_01:

You've convinced yourself somehow it's not true. Like you know everyone else.

SPEAKER_00:

Like your sisters think that. They do. I don't know how open they were at the time, but they did think that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So this like all you gotta like, I where is the gun? Like if if I'm the mom, like that's all I'm like, I'm I believe you're innocent. I believe you're innocent, my son. But just convince the cops. Prove them what prove to everybody else what I know. Yeah. Give them the gun. Let them run the ballistics. Let them prove that it's not.

SPEAKER_00:

And who who knows how Why can't you do this? Maybe she had those conversations. Who knows? But again, she did change her will a little bit in that video saying I don't want him to have the house.

SPEAKER_01:

How do you lose an assault rifle? How do you misplace that physically? It's not like misplacing a coffee mug. It's a big item, it's a big piece of matter.

SPEAKER_00:

Never stumble on it again. Like, okay, sure you misplaced it. Sure. That's what we're in your keys. But you're gonna find it.

SPEAKER_01:

You went into a store and bought an expensive piece of machinery for a reason.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you're not like a gun enthusiast. It's not like a hobby.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, where's the gun? Yeah. That's all you have to answer me that, son.

SPEAKER_00:

That's I don't know what happened, what the conversations were. Like I said, he kept kind of he didn't like keep moving, but he did move further away. So I don't know if he was distancing himself or what was happening in that couple years in between John's death and Linda disappearing. I don't know. But this does lead us all the way back to September 17th of 2016 when Linda, Carmen, and Nathan's boat, the chicken pox, disappear. And Nathan was found eight days later, as we know, floating on his emergency wrap. So now we're all back up to date.

unknown:

All right.

SPEAKER_00:

As the police continue their investigation into Linda's disappearance, Nathan files an$85,000 insurance claim on his lost boat.

SPEAKER_01:

That's stupid.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, he wants his insurance money.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but it's very stupid for the optics to do that.

SPEAKER_00:

It looks bad, is what you're saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I I will also stupid, I think, for him to host a funeral for his mom.

SPEAKER_00:

One month later when she's not even declared dead yet. I didn't think of that at all, actually.

SPEAKER_01:

Granted, everyone knows she's not, you know, she we're still looking for nobody, but I mean, y'all know she's dead.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I guess was she oh, I can't remember now. Was she declared dead though sooner because of the aspect of it being out on the seas?

SPEAKER_01:

Maybe. I don't know. I don't remember when she was legally declared dead. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

I d I don't think it's the same as if they just went missing in general. Like I think if you know that they went missing out on the seas, she's declared dead faster. However, it was a month later. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, we know that her sisters didn't go. Didn't go or didn't have a their own memorial.

SPEAKER_00:

So Well, I don't know when they would I I don't know anything about that. I just know they didn't go. Yeah. But yes, so he files the$85,000 insurance claim on his lost boat, and the insurance company denies his claim due to holes in his story.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It's also funny to me that$85,000, like he's he's set already for life, and$85,000 seems like a drop in the bucket to the fortune he's inheriting that he's already entitled to. It's like the gre like he goes out of his way to be greedy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there is a level of greed, but we'll we'll get into it too. His money does tend to get tied up. So um he's filing this insurance claim, and the insurance company denies it, saying there's holes in the story. We just it's it's not consistent. Sorry, buddy, there's something off here. And honestly, insurance always knows. Insurance always knows.

SPEAKER_01:

And they're gonna do everything they possibly can to not pay. That's what they do.

SPEAKER_00:

They're not there to help you. No, they're not.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a scam, it's extortion, it's a racket.

SPEAKER_00:

So, anyway, one hole that was in the story that the insurance companies were like, well, this just factually is incorrect. It was revealed by an oceanographer who determined the water currents should have pushed the emergency raft to the west, but Nathan said he drifted east.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Already, that's enough of an inconsistency for the insurance company to be like, Nope, you're lying. Something's off. We're not doing it. Like you said, they don't want to pay, so they'll they'll take anything. So, because of this denial, Nathan takes the insurance company to court to fight this decision. So he sues the He's doubling down. He's doubling down.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, the jackass.

SPEAKER_00:

Nathan was also trying to dip into his inheritance money of seven million dollars, but Linda's sisters were not gonna let this happen. They believed that Nathan killed their father and sister specifically for the inheritance money, of course.

SPEAKER_01:

You don't get that.

SPEAKER_00:

No. And even though the investigation was moving slowly and the police were claiming to not have enough evidence to charge Nathan with anything, the sisters were still able to take Nathan to civil court and block him from the inheritance money. Yeah. They filed a slayer petition. Have you ever heard of this? No. I don't know if it's I don't know if it's state by state or what, but this petition is specifically there to not allow a murderer to claim the inheritance of their victim. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

It's I didn't know it was called that, but that's what I was kind of referring to of like, well, you can't get the inheritance of somebody you killed. I didn't know it was called a slayer petition.

SPEAKER_00:

I guess I always thought so. I always thought you had to be literally convicted of murder to not get the inheritance money. But this, you don't have to. The murderer does not need to be convicted. Um the judge can make a judgment and say, uh, I I think you're the murderer. I don't care what the investigation says, I don't care what anything else says. I personally, given the evidence that I've seen.

SPEAKER_03:

There's enough.

SPEAKER_00:

You're the murderer. This is suspicious enough. You're not getting the money. The ants filed this petition in the summer of 2017. And this was still while Nathan was actively fighting the insurance company in court. So he doesn't have access to his money. He's not getting money from the insurance company. He is draining himself at the time.

SPEAKER_01:

The windfall he was expecting is not coming. Nope. That's gonna be the most frustrating thing. Like, like, I get this for this. What was it all for? If I can't scuba.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you know. Nathan would fight the insurance company until 2019. And I don't know how the courts work there, but it kept moving. Like Nathan just kept going. If he could keep going, he did. And finally in 2019, it hit the end, and the judge denied it, citing faulty alterations were made to the boat as well as inconsistencies in his story. They were like, No, you're you're wrong. Like, you're not right here. So, what's Nathan's story?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, what is his hearing?

SPEAKER_00:

This is what he says. According to Nathan, on that day in September of 2016, him and his mom stopped at the local stopping shop and they loaded up onto his boat like the cooler, bait, their fishing stuff, all their gear. When Nathan was asked how he realized the boat was sinking, he said, the engine sounded different to me. And I opened the hatch forward of the pilot house and observed a large quantity of water in the bilge.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Don't know what any of that means.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I know I have an approximation of my head of what that means, but not a clue. I don't know. Fucking nautical terms.

SPEAKER_00:

This is a quote from him, so if it's incorrect, he's wrong. Okay, not me. Nathan went on to say he tried to keep his mom distracted by having her pull fishing lines so that she wouldn't panic while he tried to fix the problem. Okay. He said he really didn't think that the boat would like actually sink. And that's why he never radioed for help. As Nathan was trying to repair the boat, the vessel gave way under them and he could no longer find his mom. So all of a sudden, we're we're sinking. And that's basically his story. Um, he went adrift for eight days until he was found by that ship.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's that's pretty much what his story was.

SPEAKER_01:

And he's sticking to it.

SPEAKER_00:

As best as he can, right? Little things change here and there.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know what happened to her. I lost sight of her. I don't know. I don't know. Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a lot of that. There's a lot going on. I don't know. Authorities, though, they pieced together a a different story.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Nathan did purchase bait, but he left it in his truck. It never was on the boat. It was on his truck the whole time. In his truck the whole time.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So very odd to do like an overnight.

SPEAKER_01:

One of the most crucial elements of any fish. Okay. Cool.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. So that's just odd.

SPEAKER_01:

And you wouldn't get far. Okay, I could sure. I can believe you you we all forget crucial things in our car sometimes. But how far out on the boat are you gonna get? And so you're like, all right, let's let's start baiting our hooks. Oh shit, we forgot. Let's turn around. Like it's an inconvenience, but it makes more sense than just you're clearly not fishing if you don't have the bait.

SPEAKER_00:

That's what I thought.

SPEAKER_01:

So either you turn back and get the bait, or you turn back and just don't go at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Either way, you're turning back. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You're just being in the water for no reason.

SPEAKER_00:

There was also a witness at the marina before they left that saw Nathan drilling holes into the boat and removing the boat's trim tabs. Yeah. There was someone that was like, I saw him doing stuff. It looked weird. Yeah. The FBI also discovered that Nathan bought an anchor that was incompatible with his boat, as well as incorrect lengths of chains shortly before the excursion. Okay. So he bought the wrong equipment for his boat.

unknown:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

And he's a seasoned. I know he's only like 23 at this time or whatever, but he comes from a rich family. He already owns a boat. Yeah, he's got a boat, you know. He's seasoned, he knows how to do things, and so does his mom. So like doing weird stuff like this is not normal for him. Also, in the documentary, they talk about that emergency life rap, remember? Yeah. So it looked like if you watch the documentary, again, it's kind of looks like a tent or like a little bounce house almost. It has a little cover. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And um, Nathan is like on top of it because it looks like it's sinking, like it's deflating. It's like, oh my god, he's got his last seconds. How thankful and miraculous that he's found at this moment in time.

SPEAKER_01:

And for an hour and he would have been gone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And he's also pretty healthy looking. He doesn't look bad. Um, he's not sunburnt at all. He's not dehydrated. He's looks like he's eating well.

SPEAKER_01:

He was able to, I remember when they the footage of him walking up the uh the gangway into the the Chinese vessel, and he was walking up the steps very gingerly, like which He wasn't walking gingerly.

SPEAKER_00:

Isn't gingerly lightly and kind of like you're hurting?

SPEAKER_01:

No, he was I'm saying he was not walking. Gingerly sprightly. He was walking normally with pep in his step.

SPEAKER_00:

Sorry, I thought gingerly meant like you're you're walking gingerly, like carefully.

SPEAKER_01:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

We looked up gingerly.

SPEAKER_01:

I thought it was the other way around.

SPEAKER_00:

I thought gingerly was sprightly with but um ginger, yeah, gingerly quiet. Yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

In the footage, he's walking up the gangway quickly without any, yeah, no issue as if he'd been sitting in a raft for eight days, unable really to stand for the most part. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And as someone who is just now recovering from a double foot surgery, when I finally was able to like put pressure on my feet and move, granted, I had surgery, so I have my feet and legs went under some trauma, but like it I could tell my muscles needed a minute, like my leg muscles, not my feet, my feet were in pain, but my leg muscles were like, whoa, we haven't done this in a while. And I was a little shaky, like you know, you it just takes a minute. Um, and he was totally fine. Didn't he even swim a little bit? Like the rescuer went out there because it started to yeah, oh yeah, because the emergency raft started to deflate very quickly.

SPEAKER_01:

And so he jumped off and he he swam to meet them, and like they threw him like a uh something a rope.

SPEAKER_00:

They grabbed him and pulled him up, and but he was suspiciously healthy and strong uh at that time. And then the investigators would have loved to look at the raft because there could have been evidence of how long he was on there, because there's like a water system on there, there's food on there, and they could have seen how much of it did he use, did he eat, how worn down was the raft, was it sunbleached at all?

SPEAKER_01:

Does it have how much salt was on the side of the side?

SPEAKER_00:

They could have used that to decipher how long the raft was actually out there.

SPEAKER_01:

You can tell, I mean, any living space, whether someone's been in it for a day versus eight days.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, you can just how crazy that it deflates right when they find him and they can't recover the raft either.

SPEAKER_01:

It's almost like it was tampered with and rigged to sink.

SPEAKER_00:

Right at that moment. Crazy. I mean, I'll just say the word allegedly again here. But yes.

SPEAKER_01:

That's the true magic word. It's not please, it's allegedly.

SPEAKER_00:

So by this point, the investigation was just riddled with way too many inconsistencies to ignore. And finally, in May of 2022, six years after Linda's disappearance.

SPEAKER_01:

And nine years after John's death.

SPEAKER_00:

Wait. Yeah, wait. Oh yeah, yeah. Sorry, I'm thinking of 2013. But yes, 2016 was Linda's death. And 2013 was John's, yeah. So yes. But Nathan Carmen was finally arrested, and he's like 28 years old at this time. He's arrested for Linda's murder. He's not arrested for John's.

SPEAKER_03:

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00:

And according to the Department of Justice, Nathan was arrested on three counts of mail fraud, four counts of wire fraud, and one count of murder on the high seas.

SPEAKER_01:

Sounds like he's charged federally.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Just the wire fraud makes me think I say that federal.

SPEAKER_00:

And high seas too, because it's well, there's multiple states, too.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, you have Connecticut, you have Vermont. He lives in Vermont. Mom lives in Connecticut. They left Rhode Island and they're out on the seas.

SPEAKER_01:

Would be federal jurisdiction, probably, because it's not one any one state.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there's a lot going on here. Also, John was in Connecticut, murder in Connecticut. I mean, John wasn't a part of these charges, I guess, so that doesn't matter. But yes. However, though, within the indictment, they did mention that in 2013, Nathan shot and killed his grandfather. Which I didn't know this. So this is something I learned. Indictments are not charges. I thought those were not like interchangeable. Um indictment is more of an accusation saying, We're pretty, I think you did this, but there's not enough evidence for me to put charges on you, but I'm gonna write it on record that we think you did this.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's in his indictment as well. So in 2013, Nathan shot and killed his grandfather at his house in Windsor, Connecticut.

SPEAKER_01:

When yeah. What he had to be charged fairly because this because I in the federal indictments, usually it's the FBI or some federal ATF, some federal law enforcement will write kind of the the a narrative of what backs up these charges. And they will sometimes establish it. I'm about to read it. Yeah, they'll just say things as a fact. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Even if it's not a part of the charges, but they're just saying it like, no, he killed his grandfather. We we're we know it. We we can't prove it to be a fact, but we know it to be true.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Also within it, it says in 2016 he killed his mom, Linda, and sunk the boat off the coast of Rhode Island. The indictment also alleges that both killings were part of a scheme to obtain money and property from John's estate and family trusts. It continues on to allege that Nathan attempted to defraud the insurance company that insured his boat. And the fraud charges each carry a potential penalty of up to 30 years. And then if he's convicted of the murder on the high seas, life without parole. Mandatory life imprisonment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

He also he could, assuming federal charges, he could be subject to the death penalty, too, because that's you can be the feds have the death penalty as possible for murder conviction.

SPEAKER_00:

Crazy that our federal government can do that.

SPEAKER_01:

Like Michigan, for example, we don't have the death penalty. Right. Never have.

SPEAKER_00:

But the federal government can be can like Trump.

SPEAKER_01:

There was a guy. Guy in the 40s who did a bank robbery in Midland, Michigan, and he killed someone in the act, was convicted, charged federally with bank robbery or murder, was convicted, sentenced to die, and they moved him to, I think, Indiana to actually do the execution. But yeah, the feds will can do that. Oh, they usually just move you to a a state that allows the death. Even if the crime was in the state that doesn't committed a federal crime in that state and it's death penalty worthy, though. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Well I don't know if it applied to this case specifically, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Nathan was scheduled to go to trial in October of 2023. And he would never go to trial. Nathan was found unresponsive in his cell around 2 20 a.m. on Thursday, June 15th, 2023. He was pronounced dead 40 minutes later. No, he just killed himself. He wasn't murdered.

SPEAKER_01:

But I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

His death was not suspicious the way that that other person's was. Um it was not suspicious. There was no one in the cell with him. It was found that he died by suicide. In the documentary, they say that he used his shoelaces to hang himself.

SPEAKER_01:

Pretty damning to commit suicide before your trial. Like after the trial, if you're convicted. Even if you're not guilty, I could see the despair of I'm innocent and I'm still convicted of murder.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, like post-trial. But before?

SPEAKER_01:

There's hope. Before if you're innocent, there's hope. You have no idea what the you can get one juror. Yeah. And it doesn't matter how dead to rights you think your case is, you get one juror. So like to kill yourself before the trial.

SPEAKER_00:

Why would you do that? Yeah. Many do believe.

SPEAKER_01:

When you roll the dice, like you take your shot. If it goes bad, then maybe you do it. But like, what are you doing? Yeah, yeah. It's like buying the scratch off ticket and not scratching it. Like at least scratch it, you don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, many do believe at this. Was the ultimate admission of guilt. His aunts, of course, view him as the murderer, so they're not-I mean, I can't say they're not surprised by this, but that yes, this is an admission of guilt to them. However, Nathan's dad, Clark, he just cannot wrap his mind around his son being a murderer. He's still, according to an interview with Clark in November of 2025.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, so last month.

SPEAKER_00:

Nathan was at the time upbeat and kind of hopeful. It shocked Clark to hear the news of Nathan's death. He said, quote, we were ready to go to trial, and you get that call to find out your son just died. Hard to accept. I still don't.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So I I do feel bad for Nathan's dad. It seems like he, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's is what it is.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't Yeah, it's sad.

SPEAKER_01:

That's what I expect.

SPEAKER_00:

Both murder cases are still open today because the trial never happened. So John and Linda um have technically open cases. There are a few other little theories that I saw pop up. Like someone thinks maybe John was murdered by the mob.

unknown:

Oh.

SPEAKER_00:

Or maybe a disgruntled employee.

SPEAKER_01:

That's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So there's those things, but um, yeah. I I think Nathan did it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Disgruntled employee isn't gonna if you're gonna go into someone's house, your your boss in the middle of the night and kill them, you're not gonna take anything.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I know. You're gonna steal from him.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, like this a Rolex, something like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

What?

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I guess John used that house as like an office, so maybe, but he was like, anyway, whatever. It doesn't matter. So um, yeah, I I think Nathan did it allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, blah, blah, blah. I think he did it. Um, Merry Christmas. Yeah. Hug your mother, don't disappear her out on the high seas, hug your grandpa.

SPEAKER_01:

If she also shouldn't have you kidnapped and sent to Utah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I keep forgetting about that. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I wonder how John felt about that.

SPEAKER_01:

But everyone's a victim.

SPEAKER_00:

I wonder if Grandpa John was okay with that. You know what I mean? I bet that was a big riff, too, if if he didn't agree with that.

SPEAKER_01:

What if Linda killed her dad?

SPEAKER_00:

Right. That that is a theory as well. Yeah. You don't know. We don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

We know they got physical. We know that she was arrested in a hospital for assaulting him.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. But I will say Nathan was the last one to see his grandfather the day before the night before, and he doesn't have um, I forgot to mention this, he doesn't really have an alibi for where he was from 8 p.m. that night to midnight.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like he can't tell them where he was. Like, okay, well, you were probably killing your grandfather. So like I think it was Nathan. Yeah. Um that's yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's pretty open and shut to me.

SPEAKER_00:

That's how I feel. I think it's crazy that they couldn't arrest him earlier for John's murder. Like, how could they not?

SPEAKER_01:

Whatever judge didn't sign that first warrant who didn't think there was probable cause.

SPEAKER_00:

These to think some palms were greased.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know if palms were greased or just there was some red I don't know. Someone dropped the ball.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I have no idea.

SPEAKER_01:

I think Linda's death would have been prevented.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Or I mean, you don't know for a fact, but it could have been prevented.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

In some alternate reality where they searched his house and maybe he was arrested, assuming he did it. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But where is that gun?

SPEAKER_00:

Where is the gun?

SPEAKER_01:

The gun's goodness.

SPEAKER_00:

Where's the gun? Where is it? We don't know. The raft is gone, the boat is gone, the mom is gone, the gun is gone.

SPEAKER_01:

Gun could have been on the boat. God was probably on the boat. Honestly, that's what I think.

SPEAKER_00:

I think everything was on the boat, and I think he got rid of all of it. Sank it all. Yep. So yeah. With that, Merry Christmas. Happy birthday. Happy New Year. Let's do it. Yay. Follow us on Instagram, Borrowed Bones Podcast. You can also follow, rate, and review us anywhere you listen to podcasts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I am always adding things to it. So if you have looked at it, look at it again because I get bored and just keep adding things. So coffee mugs and shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the things. Um, but yes, there's merch, there's everything. So um, yeah, hug your sister, hug your mother, hug your brother, don't kill any of them. Feliz Navidad. Bye.

Head Shot

Sarah and Cole

Host

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